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Posted 10 Months ago
Roger E. Moore
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I've seen too much posted here regarding Sifo-Dyas, much of which seems to contain holes or is just downright over-elaborate. This has dampened my usual apathy enough to get me to post my two cents worth, in the optimistic belief that others may be interested in clearing a few things up once and for all from what we've been given.

Applying Occam's Razor to what we know from the films, Lucas himself, and sources close to Lucas (eg Starwars.com & holonet news), the following is at least consistent and much less complex than some of the theories being proposed.

Sitting comfortably? Then we'll begin.

First, let's start with what we know from the films:

o Both Darth Maul and Qui-Gon die during the events of TPM.

o AOTC is set 10 years after TPM. (OK not explicitly stated in the films, but universally accepted?)

o In AOTC, Count Dooku = Lord Tyranus = Darth Tyranus = Leader of separatist movement.

o There are always two sith (no more, no less). (The rule was supposedly implemented after the sith pretty much destroyed themselves by turning on one another eg 1 master with 2 apprentices leaves opportunity for the apprentices to gang up on the master. 1 master, 1 apprentice gives reliance on each other, at least until a better alternative shows up. Both the Emperor and Vader entertain the idea of Luke taking the other one out. Notice there is no suggestion of a menage a trois).

Therefore: o Darth Tyranus is the sole sith apprentice to Sidious in AOTC.

and: o Darth Maul is the sole apprentice in TPM.

o Sifo-Dyas was a genuine jedi master (may/may not have been on the jedi council), who was familiar to Yoda, Mace & Obi-Wan.

o The order for the clones was placed nearly 10 Years before AOTC (ie after TPM), by someone calling themself Sifo-Dyas.

o The person placing the order did not have the authority of the jedi council to do so.

o When Obi-Wan mentions the name 'Sifo-Dyas' to Yoda & Mace, they share a knowing glance, and then proceed to give the impression that they know something about him that Obi-Wan doesn't, and that they're not entirely keen to tell him either. (Come on, I know this wasn't just me - back me up here).

Therefore: o There's a tasty, twisty morsel yet to come (in EP3 hopefully) regarding Sifo-Dyas' backstory.

o Sifo-Dyas (as known by Yoda etc.) died before this order was placed. (I'm *sure* this was stated in the film - ie 'Sifo-Dyas died before then' and not 'he died about 10 years ago' as has been put forward elsewhere. Please, please someone confirm this either way once and for all).

Therefore: o Sifo-Dyas (as known by Yoda etc.) could not have placed the order.

Therefore: o Some other person used his identity (presumably knowing he was dead).

o Prior to leaving the jedi order, Dooku was regarded as a powerful jedi, if not a member of the council.

Therefore: o Dooku can be expected to have known about Sifo-Dyas' death.

o Darth Tyranus recruited Jango Fett (on some moon) to be the template for the clone army. When Jango says he doesn't know Sifo-Dyas, but was approached by Tyranus, he is talking about the cloning, and *not* the contract on Amidala as others seem to think. Simply, he has nothing to hide about being the clone template, but is unlikely to mention to one of the jedi knights who were with Zam Wesell when he killed her that 'Yeah! That was me! I hired her!'. Doesn't suggest much bounty hunter nous.

Therefore: o Count Dooku had become Sidious' apprentice (and adopted the name Tyranus) before clone production begins ie between TPM (death of Maul), and one year after TPM.

o Sidious' plans enveloped the creation of the clone army in secrecy, and the creation of a visible threat to the republic in the form of the separatist movement.

Therefore: o Ultimately, Sidious put in motion the order for the clones (either in person, or via Dooku or another other servant of his).

o Only a jedi, with access to the archives, would have been able to erase information regarding location of Kamino.

o During their battle, Yoda senses dark side in Dooku, realising he is now sith.

Still with me? Hopefully, we can all agree on the above, apart from where stated. Now then, from the twilight zone of canon, (somewhere between the books and the films), let's make some assumptions. Anyone who can actually provide reliable sources for these (eg Starwars.com, holonet news, Lucas interviews), or at least confirm that I'm not the only person to have heard them would be greatly appreciated. here we go:

o Sidious and Palpatine are two guises of the same person:- <Occam's razor> Always have been, always will be. IMHO the story is much stronger if this is the case i.e. sith lord works his way through legitimate channels to become leader of the republic, then Emperor by crafty manipulation of those around him, all the while concealing his sith identity and interacting with the very people he wishes to destroy, and who are unaware that the sith lord they seek is under their noses' all the time. This narrative seems to me far powerful and poignant than one involving Palpatine being a separate person under the control of Sidious. If I refer to Sidious here, I also mean Palpatine, and vice versa. </Occam's razor>

o Neither Sidious or Maul were ever jedi:- Sidious became the apprentice to some as yet unknown sith (let's call him Darth X), maybe before entering politics, but at least before TPM. After Darth X dies (however that happens), Sidious discovers Maul (then at a relatively young age, and off the radar of the jedi) as his apprentice (maybe not his first one, but at that point his only one).

o While still a jedi, Dooku supposedly studied a sith holocron in the jedi archives. Therefore he was already flirting with the dark side before he left the order.

<Occam's razor> o Dooku is the only one with access and motive to delete info regarding Kamino from jedi archives. Surely we are firmly nudged towards this idea in AOTC, and anything more complex is over-elaborating? </Occam's razor>

Therefore: o Dooku has been recruited by Sidious *before* officially leaving jedi order, (perhaps by using the death of Dooku's former padawan to breed disillusionment with all things jedi).

o Dooku's family is vastly wealthy (enough to finance a clone army if necessary), and after renouncing the jedi order, he had access to this wealth.

o Early, supposedly leaked versions of the AOTC script, had Sifo-Dyas as Sido-Dyas, whose name was *not* known to the jedi ie the name of a non-existent jedi, which sounds even more like Sidious than Sifo-Dyas. This suggests that originally it was a simple case of deception on Sidious' part, but was subsequently altered to leave room for a new twist.

o Palpatine is about 50 in AOTC (not that important, but for clarity's sake I'm guessing...)

Phew. From the above, let's deduce a timeline relative to AOTC:

-40 to -10 years: Palpatine born. Palpatine recruited by Darth X, adopts the name Sidious. Darth X dies (maybe at the hands of Sidious' first potential apprentice). Sidious recruits Darth Maul at a relatively young age (maybe after previous, now dead, apprentices).

Also during this era: Dooku takes on Qui-Gon as a padawan. Master jedi (& council member?) Sifo-Dyas dies.

-10 years (during TPM): Sith reveal themselves to jedi (so to speak). Darth Maul killed. Qui-Gon killed.

-10 to -9 years: Sidious recruits Dooku as his new apprentice, who adopts the name Tyranus. Dooku deletes info regarding Kamino from jedi archives. Dooku leaves jedi order voluntarily, claiming to be upset at the death of his former padawan, and at the general bureaucracy of the jedi and the senate. His subsequent movements are largely unknown to the jedi council. Tyranus recruits Jango Fett to be template for creation of a clone army. Sidious/Tyranus/unknown_minion places order for clone army with Kaminoans, under the identity of (dead) jedi master Sifo-Dyas.

-9 to 0 years: Dooku (in the eyes of the jedi order) re-appears, at the head of a separatist movement, expressing a lack of confidence in the republic.

0 years (AOTC): Creation of clone army discovered by Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan told by Dooku that the senate is under the control of the sith lord, Darth Sidious. Yoda realises Dooku is sith.

OK then. Now for the point of this tale. If the above holds true, then it follows that:

It was either Sidious, or someone at his behest (eg Dooku or some random minion) that placed the order for the clones under the assumed name of the (known to be dead) jedi master Sifo-Dyas. Since Dooku is explicitly shown to have recruited Jango Fett (as Tyranus), it's no biggie to go further and state if he had personally placed the order. Since we are not told this, my money's on it being Sidious. Personally, I don't think this will ever be confirmed or denied in the next film, and in reality it's a minor point. So long as it's shown that ultimately the plan was Sidious' (which is established at the meeting between Dooku & Sidious at the end of AOTC), it doesn't really matter who personally placed the order. I'm not even 100% sure that the Kaminoans even state that they physically met with 'Sifo-Dyas' (as opposed to just receiving an order in the post). As for who pays for it all, the (not-in-the-film) backstory regarding Dooku's personal wealth is presumably a device to suggest that he had the resources. If you don't like that idea, then it's not much of a leap to assume that our resident Machiavelli Sidious could raise the funds required without breaking sweat. Again, the exact details add little to the story, and I don't expect we will hear them in Ep 3. Oh, and just because they used Sifo-Dyas' name, doesn't mean they were responsible for his death. More likely it's just a bit of opportunism on Sidious' part.

As for other candidates for impersonating Sifo-Dyas, when the order is placed Qui-Gon and Maul are dead, so not them. Tyranus and Sidious are the only sith around when it happens, so it's not Mace or another jedi being a
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Posted 10 Months ago
heathbar
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I think it has posted on starwars.com that Palpatine and Darth Sidious are one in the same. So it would support your theory. I believe they are one in the same also. I kinda think he was always a Sith Lord (haven't really thought about how he became but like your idea), but why deal with the Jedi at the height of their strength. Wait for alittle unrest ala the trade federation (Phantom Menace), and try and throw a monkey in the wrench.
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Posted 10 Months ago
Lil_princess_01
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I'm not disagreeing with your conclusions, just questioning the necessity of taking the back roads to get there.
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Posted 10 Months ago
Mathiasll
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Finally. I agree totally with what you have stated, I just never wanted to type it out.

If I read one more 'Palpatine is a clone,' or 'Mace is a sith,' or 'Balance means 2 sith and 2 jedi' posts I'll puke. Do these people not watch the freaking movies? Are they that stupid?

It's apparent to me that Palpatine cannot be Sifo-Dyas, as his death 10 years ago would still have him in the Jedi Order while he was senator of Naboo. And since the dark side is so hard to see, the council cannot see him the dark lord right under their noses. This is classic!

I believe Palpy was recruited by Darth X, with a master plan to rule the galaxy. So he uses the dark side of the force to foresee a way to make it happen, ends up on Naboo. The rest is history.

-
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Posted 10 Months ago
Ejwnlsdk
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Most speculations really are that way...

Nice intro...

GL has stated this in an interview. So it comes from the man himself.

Still we are not certain if the 1 master 1 apprentice rule apply for the Sith in general (at any specific moment they are always two) or in particular (that the Sith go in pairs, meaning that if the Sidious-Maul is one pair, there are other Sith pairs not known to us).

Correct. For the pairs we already know. The whole question is if Tyranus became an apprentice directly after Maul's death or previously to Maul's demise.

here).

YES, that IS correct.

No, in the film the mentioning of Sifo-Dyas's death comes only from Obi-Wan. Yoda or Mace do not say anything about it. The 'Sifo-Dyas died before then' comes from the novelization. Movie-wise there is no action or words spoken by either Yoda or Mace on the matter.

That's where the whole problem is. Since Yoda and mace do not agree (or dissagree) with Obi-Wan on the matter we cannot be SURE. Maybe it was the real Sifo-Dyas, maybe it wasn't/

We cannot be sure.

Must be common knowledge. As Qui-Gon's death too.

Yes. I *do* think too that he's talking about the cloning. However he's mentioning Tyranus as his employer. That complicates things now that we know the REAL identity of Tyranus.

Tyranus) before clone production begins ie between TPM (death of Maul), and one year after TPM.

We cannot be certain of the time that Dooku became an apprentice of Sidious. Jango does not mention when he was employed and Sidious does not mention anything either at the end. For all we know Dooku could have been an apprentice of Sidious even after quitting the Jedi order.

That servant could have been the real Sifo-Dyas.

Like Sifo-Dyas.

Yoda senses the dark side. However he does not say that Dooku IS a sith.

Yes.

But of course.

Quite true. The whole story will be less important if Palpatine and Sidious were two different personas.

Yes.

The dark side yes.

I do not think so. We DO not know how many Jedi have turned to the dark side and DIDn't become Sith. However there is a possibility that a Jedi turned to the dark side, didn't become Sith but allied himself with the Sith. If Sifo-Dyas is still alive he COULD be that person.

We do not know for certain. He could have been recruited, but he also couldn't have been recruited. There is no fixed time limit here, as far as the info from the movies go.

We do not know. He is a count, but he maybe using money from other resources (like money from the separatists) to finance the clones, if he indeed made the order himself. If Sifo-Dyas is Sidious, then Dooku's wealth is not relevant here.

And the NEW twist leaves more questions than answers.

All the timelines mentioned are subject to different interpretation. What most fans of the movies do not clearly see is that humans in the Star Wars universe are not humans but human-likes. The age of each character is not important here. For example, Anakin is a Tatooian, Amidala is a Nabooian. That alone explains the fact of him looking older than her. Plain and simple (just to point it out).

Or even Sidious's hands.
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Posted 10 Months ago
soul8o8
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I agree that Star Wars isn't that complicated. I don't think what I was saying is either, merely the most elegant of assumptions from what we have been (apparently) told. If anything my post was a reaction to people posting stuff that ignores what has been put in front of us in favour of something which has, at best, tenuous links to what we see and hear on screen. Not that they're necessarily wrong, more that I think their efforts could be applied to more worthy targets.

As for 'death' of a jedi always meaning turning to the dark side, I don't buy it. We've seen that once before, which can either be explained by exceptional circumstances (wanting Luke to be anti-Vader, and believing his father died an honourable jedi so he is inclined to follow that path himself), or by George Lucas having the opportunity to make further films, in which Vader is now Luke's father, and changing the spin on Obi-Wan's words accordingly. Yes, Sifo-Dyas is 'dead' as far as the jedi know, but in this case I hope they mean it literally. However, I'm expecting it to involve some kind of twist, as foreshadowed by the look exchanged between Yoda and Mace. Nothing more, nothing less. Merely trying to focus people's efforts onto what that twist might be, rather than towards what I see as blind alleys.

Darth ZaZa
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Posted 10 Months ago
mesaba
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Plus, why would a Sith lord order a clone army for the Jedi???
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Posted 9 Months, 4 Weeks ago
srkaeppler
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Theoretically and practically yes. But we are not discussing the end results here. We are discussing the means. Sifo-Dyas is a tool. We want to know WHO that tool really is.
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Posted 9 Months, 4 Weeks ago
Angel-xan
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I'd like to see that link.
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Posted 9 Months, 4 Weeks ago
Linda2
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I knew that! Did you not get that I was trying to make a point?!
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